Safety Committee
Cleveland City Council
Criminal Justice
Politics
Wednesday, Sept. 28, 2022
10:00 a.m. — 12:00 p.m. EDT
601 Lakeside Ave Cleveland, OH 44114 (Directions)
City Hall (Watch via YouTube), Mercedes Cotner Committee Room 217
The Safety Committee of Cleveland City Council is responsible for the oversight of the Cleveland Police and Fire Divisions and the Emergency Medical Service. It reviews legislation proposed by The Department of Public Safety, and it also oversees the enforcement of Cleveland’s traffic code, off-street parking issues, and building inspections and other matters related to the department and Community Relations Board.
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For more information go to Cleveland City Council’s website: https://www.clevelandcitycouncil.org.
Check the source website for additional information
Reporting
Edited and summarized by the Cleveland - OH Documenters Team
Live reporting by
Seanna Jackson
Committee delays decision on expanding ShotSpotter
SD
@seandene
Hi🌺 In Cleveland, ill be live tweeting todays Cleveland City Council Safety Committee Meeting, 10am. #NeighborUpCLE #CLEDocumenters @cledocumenters
09:03 AM Sep 28, 2022 CDT
@cledocumenters Polensek asks about many officers have left as of today, and requests a standing count of overdoses and fatality as a result of drug overdoses be reported at safety committee meetings.
@cledocumenters 868-2022 EMERGENCY ORDINANCE was passed without objection authorizing the Director of Public Safety to enter into a MOU with the United States Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives relating to reimbursement of costs by the Cleveland Division of Police.
@cledocumenters The second issue on the agenda is SHOTSPOTTER, currently being discussed. SHOTSPOTTER is a gunshot-detection technology uses a combination of acoustic sensors and computer software to detect gunshots and alert customers -- generally police forces -- about incidents.
@cledocumenters They are currently sharing a recorded conversation about SHOTSPOTTER. Call taker says maybe you should get some SHOTSPOTTER. Officers can respond in about 3 minutes with this technology. It pinpoints gunfire and allows an immediate police response.
@cledocumenters Director Howard expresses the importance of the technology. Receiving no calls from citizens, trying to find gunshot locations as concern. But take a look at this by @Doug_Pitorak , it shares some interesting insight including" Shaky use as evidence "
docs.google.com/document/d/1xC…
docs.google.com/document/d/1xC…
@cledocumenters @Doug_Pitorak Cleveland Police said they have only one use of force issue related to SHOTSPOTTER. Says it gives opportunities to respond to the data. Recognizes the concern for violations of community rights, have not had those issues in the city of Cleveland in the 2 years they have used it.
@cledocumenters @Doug_Pitorak "Officers are not randomly stopping people, there is no data from office of standards that officers are overly zealous in using the technology.
Polensek asks to Police Chief, why people do not call the police when they hear gunshots. He says people could be desensitized, among other things.
Discussion about how SHOTSPOTTER will allow them to respond quickly. There are only 8 call takers. Polensek asks if we have enough dispatchers and call takers. The answer was yes . He asks if they supply info on the vacancies.
They are getting ready for presentation. Councilman Jones stated that we dont get this information in enough time to review what is being presented.
Why people dont call 911 when they hear gunshots? They open the presentation with this concern. The resident thinks the police department will respond, police dont, and people get the perception that police dont care. https://t.co/IX2fNxHrD2
They say they want to improve responding to community safety with guns. "You cant manage what you cant measure". https://t.co/pAdGd45LjJ
They share what happens when a gunshot happens and is not reported. That gun, that person, victim and or issues currently have a dominoe effect in communities where Spotshotter is not used. https://t.co/Zil2iuZWJP
After determining the sensor is reading gunfire, it moves thru its process. Teaches "Cop to a Dot". Sends officer to where gunshot occured. https://t.co/q6BB4MSNNT
Timestamped to the milisecond. Audio characteristics. Can determine level of threat, and can determine factors later where shooters may claim "self defense". https://t.co/cOmbwQU9VV
Crime scene technicians dont have this. 80 percent they never get a phone call. https://t.co/R9jaVgan6a
Congress does not allow the ATF to have a database. Theres a time gap between a gun. They say "Ghost guns never had a serial number, getting them in a system is important". Police can now have a thorough canvas to solve the crime. https://t.co/ol6DKhS0sJ
Handouts are being shared to all council members. A TWO year test pilot has been happening with Fourth District of Cleveland Police. https://t.co/V2axsLlEha
Number of average daily alerts, raw total of 2020. Year to day as of 2022. https://t.co/aCZnUp4KIU
Red is shotspotter area, blue is non shotspotter area and yellow is city wide. Decreases in areas of use increase in areas of non shotspotter use. https://t.co/bBNynTthsz
Does not detect all gunfire, they still depend on the public to pick up the phone and call. But If it uses sensors, why do people need to call? https://t.co/2t611DHJX2
This stat comes from Shotspotter. Within 3 minutes and 300 feet. https://t.co/zMQby2FX1R
Concern about officers being "amped up" on arrival, however they sat that data shows different. https://t.co/qBuooesA5P
Councilman Slife's concern is not just responding, but prevention and how its used as evidence in trial. Were people prosecuted because of SHOTSPOTTER? Prosecutors have plead out cases so far, have not gone to trial with any yet. Antille will submit direct answers.
Polensek asks about the fact that SHOTSPOTTER is Proprietary software. Response included that the data shared, but somethings are protected. Police says we dont want the criminals to know where the sensors are.
Theres a learning curve here and use in wards. Polensek speaks to concern witn it Close correlation with safety and security cameras. Safety cameras have taken time to be implemented, they are not there yet.
Councilman Jones, speaks to University Circles proposition of use, he has been oriented. "From a victim of crime perspective its good. But the cost is prohibitive, prices need to be brought down".
Jones says 4th district being worst crime area, and military style guns to being heard. Says they are down 300 police officers and they need to do the work of getting police down on the ground. "You will not retain population in City of Cleveland" without police on the ground.
Jones go on to say, "Go back and sharpen your pencil to make this something good for human beings" he asks... Just how bad is crime in the 4th district? Police responds that violent crime is down, robberies are up.
Jones asks Why was 4th district chosen? 4th district had the highest homicide and violent crime they said. CPD are 301 officers short, goal is 1640 officers. Down 45 officers in the 4th district.
Jones asks ...are we working to fill the slots, SHOTSPOTTER cant work if there is no plan to replace the staff issue...If we are spending 332 million on safety. Chief says they are working theyre plan to hire more police officers. They are urging people of the city to join.
SPOTSHOTTER has a fixed cost by the square mile. Each of the device has set cost to build the sensors. Highly competive labor environment, fixed price since relationship with CPD. Modem in devices it, they are paying VERIZON and ATT costs.
Councilman Star Ward 5, speaks to concern from conviction rate on current system and issues we currently have. He mentions cameras and agreements with CMHA where they use cameras. Howard says SHOTSPOTTER, its effective because they have seen reduction.
Starr mentions a case in Chicago where officers falsely accused using SHOTSPOTTER. Howard redirects back to Cleveland and that we do not have a culture of "stop and frisk". Says it doesnt take technology on wrongful conviction, that is from bad policing, bad prosecutors.
Starr says... Reality is, nobody calls the police. Because people dont trust the police. Wouldnt it be more effective with police on the ground? He mentions loitering, SHOTSPOTTER is not prevention and intervention. Howard says it serves the reactive needs, to police & community.
Starr mentions...Technology components of cameras. When trying to get CMHA camera footage, cameras are broken, issues involve, Cleveland Public Power and Illuminating company, bulbs and functioning cameras. He asks if SHOTSPOTTER, can wait.. until what we have is in order.
Polensek says the Mayor says this is just another tool. He is not here to push anything through. Starr wants them to understand an issue that is bigger than $million's and SHOTSPOTTER. We are trying to pacify a larger issue.
Councilwoman Howse says that Cleveland has spent no prevention dollars but want to use ARPA dollars for SHOTSPOTTER. What is the standard for return on investment? Whats the end goal? https://t.co/5TWj6DahME
Howse states or asks if a Decrease in crime where SHOTSPOTTER is used but Is it truly a decrease if there are there increases in other areas? Howard says the locations are undisclosed, stats show decrease but victims of crime see numbers of positive crime.
Howse continues sharing the 15 to 9 to 6 percent of people (decrease) calling the police. She reinterates that In the traunt there is NO money in prevention and reviews a report on community and response t
Howse asks how many Black men work for SHOTSPOTTER, they respond that Ceo is an african american, board members and they contract with minority members. Diversity is brought to their workforce. "Is anyone here in the City of Cleveland?" Publically traded, doesnt know shareholders
They are not ready to take a vote on this legislation, says Polensek. He asks for amendment documentation, Starr asks why. Howse goes on that not having prevention is problematic.
Councilman Conwell, asks Is it true that SHOTSPOTTER is NOT being used in Canton, Ohio? Howard mentions stop and frist, is apart of culture,CPD does not have. And has not have SHOTSPOTTER giving false data at this time even with July 4th activity.
"What’s more difficult to measure, however, is to what extent ShotSpotter is reducing shooting injuries and whether it’s recording the gunshots that actually hit people, since many of those incidents appear to occur outside the technology’s boundaries" shotspotter.com/news/shotspott…
@CleKevinConwell asks "are there committees who will work with this".. Howard answers that the Mayor will implement an advisory committee and there are other committees involved. Conwell says we need something specific to SPOTSHOTTER to evaluate it.
Conwell doesnt want residents to be desensitived to do nothing. Recalls experience with residents, taking action on site, and residents being at risk for reporting. He supports use or technology. Says Mayor is into Smart cities and use of technology. Says cost is not in writing. https://t.co/HN00O5s16l
Councilwoman of Ward 4 speaks. Covers their 3 Sq miles. Concerns of this investment vs. those that have been invested in already. Howard says it invaluable in life saving, decrease in gunfire, but in ex of fire/ems we cant count how many fires that dont happen. https://t.co/ykDG01i9TZ
Howard says it will increase prosecutions. Councilwoman says "Tell me about the cons of SHOTSPOTTER"...Howard says Police response may decrease, but we still need to hear from the residents, residents still need to report.
Councilwoman of Ward 4 asks WHY they havent brought this to the community discussion? She says residents have not been involved. She asked if they have had community meetings? System been in place 2 years. Have you advocated to residents? Howard says we need citizens to engage.
She says from March to July NO questions have arised to her in her community about SHOTSPOTTER. If she has not had it on her agenda, how does the bigger percentage of people know about it?
Jones asks if they are open to coming to 4th district (After 2 years in). They are. Commander Cutters is the expert. He can be sent to the community to answer questions if approved.
Councilwoman of Ward 4, recalls issues and need for prevention. Howse mentions that the majority of Cleveland residents dont come to meetings, so they need an effective communicatiom strategy.
Councilman Mooney asks if the sensors are getting better? Yes. He asks if they have to pay busineses for the location of the sensors? Yes. Do you pay for power? Privately owned residential property, they may pay to be on a roof. https://t.co/LLBSz7cyNF
Mooney asks if SPOTSHOTTER had competitors? They explain differences in their product. Mooney mentions courts an love for gunspotter cases. Who would pay for experts to testify? Cuyahoga county would pay for felonies. Nothing has been brought to trial bc they have All pleaded out https://t.co/s6hIwAbOdM
He asked questions and the answers shared that it cannot detect certain things surpressed or indoor gunfire, mentioned. It is for outdoor. Modem connects to a satellite thru use of cell phone technologies. Anytime system down, would not charge of City of Cleveland. https://t.co/7IPgXe6ZRg
Can other departments use the software without SHOTSPOTTER?Contracts have to be renewed every 3 years. Would they come collect the equipment? Not necessarily. Datacenter is located in Freemont California. Redundant site on east coast.
He asks who can you sell the data to? Main parties are ATF and federal government. There is a need to see bigger picture, they may look to SHOTSPOTTER. They do not know if they are in contract to sell data.
Vigilanty, was an app, now citizen app. It intercepts 911/police and shares. He shared concern using an example of company security systems go door to door, and that data went to citizens app.
Councilman says among other things that fear is an emotion and sometimes safety is sometimes misearned. SPOTSHOTTER responds with results.
shotspotter.com/public-safety-…
shotspotter.com/public-safety-…
Jones asks when and how this came together. 2019, grant from the Lozick family foundation.
clevelandpolicefoundation.org/adroll-landing/
clevelandpolicefoundation.org/adroll-landing/
Howse returns to the goal: reduce violent crime...how much are we trying to reduce & measure ourselves? Police responds that Cleveland rec centers are now also resource centers, efforts that contribute to prevention and lanes to investment on prevention. Polensek breaks,for 5min. https://t.co/j18okJ5C6K
From New York Campaign Zero, managing Director speaks to contract, page 9, subsection C. It does not warrant that it will result in the reduction of crime, he says that the research out there it shows it is not a crime prevention tool. campaignzero.org https://t.co/gK8dY6BGnI
Encourages that they not vote on it today, go back and research. Has not worked in several cities including Los Angeles. No signigificant impact on gun crime. Studies from 68 cities from 1999, did not help in the ways they promote but Increased demands on resources.
Council asks him about the data he presents. He says its alll PUBLICally available published research 😂
Mentions recent article about East Cleveland and police wrongdoing.
Public funds should research completely to understand all that goes into this use of technology.
cleveland.com/news/2022/09/e…
Public funds should research completely to understand all that goes into this use of technology.
cleveland.com/news/2022/09/e…
Campainzero.org "We can live in a world where the police don't kill people
by limiting police interventions, improving community interactions, and ensuring accountability" https://t.co/oKYfIReFm0
by limiting police interventions, improving community interactions, and ensuring accountability" https://t.co/oKYfIReFm0
Cleveland Resident reports false positives at 48percent and speaks to audio technology, and sales pitches. Shared that #CleDocumenter started polling...what do you think? reports 95 percent that the city should not spend this money on Shotspotters 💞
No decision on this today. This concludes todays City Council Safety meeting. #cledocumenters @cledocumenters
Agency Information
Cleveland City Council
See meeting notes for details
Cleveland City Council is the legislative branch of the government of the City of Cleveland in Ohio. There are 17 elected Cleveland City Council members representing the 17 wards of the City of Cleveland. Each ward has approximately 25,000 residents. Council Members are elected to serve a four-year term. Council members serve two roles in their duties: to draft and enact legislation for the city of Cleveland and act as ombudsmen for their constituents.
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